Monday, May 31, 2010

Qigong training

You see, you don't have my permission to tell me when enough is enough. I appreciate that you feel this way, but I trust you will understand when I ignore your dictum.

As I have mentioned in the past, whenever one has any size of an audience, one has that many reputations. I simply cannot keep up with all of that. I only respect the opinions of those who are closest to me. If my words offend anyone I would simply say, do not read them. If I want anyone's opinion I will ask for it. I present information and opinion out to the ether. Take it or not.

There are some who have known Bruce a long time. Some of them are still with him. Many are not. There are real and concrete reasons for both of these positions. Bruce made his bed long ago and seems comfortable lying in it. I am no one's sycophant. Does it bother no one to be told that they cannot have access to the "master", but must go through some talentless underling? I've passed. I might have been one of those talentless underlings. I learned much after Bruce. Fortunately for my students, I had a little talent.

All that has been told about him is not entirely accurate. It's the thing about living in the times we do. Accuracy and truthfulness can be checked...and has been. There is NO Taoist Water Tradition beyond that Bruce says there is. And that's fine.

But I don't want someone pissing down my back and telling me it's raining.

Now, enough of this personality parade. It's about the information. And to end, and as I have always said: There is information, but then there is knowledge. Never forget that is a huge gap there. And skill is a chasm between those two. Normally I'd try to stay on topic, but I'm compelled at the moment to butt my head where it doesn't belong and comment on this exchange. Namely, this is for the reason that I believe good topics get obscured by a volume of useless exchanges. Two things:

Useful Messaging:

Armando, though I don't always agree with the way that Buddy makes points, he does generally make some. Witness the highly productive thread on alignment.Controversial...but specific, referenced, and useful. While your demeanor online is what I consider to be very pleasant and nice (you certainly have Buddy beat here), the content of your messages is usually quite thin.

I get the most out of posts on this board that are on a certain topic, specific, referenced by the experience of poster (i.e. it feels like this), and where the source of said material is mentioned. You may well have much to offer, but please do it in a way that is not only pleasant in language, but specific and applicable to group consumption.

Buddy, enough with whole "I don't give a damn" line. Those who don't give a damn, don't respond.

You know someone who doesn't give a damn...Bruce Frantzis. This board has his picture on it and is largely absorbed in posts that reference his materials. We say whatever we want about him and and his system, good and bad. We call him fat, and unpleasant, and highly skilled. This is just one corner of the internet. There are many others doing the same thing.

Yet, we will most likely never see Bruce personally commenting on this forum. He seems far too busy teaching, and generating books, web content, and learning materials on qigong, IMA, and meditation that span an entire globe. He says, "Here the best stuff I have to offer...in print, DVD, blog, and person. Practice it or don't. I hope that you do, but I don't give a damn."

And he doesn't.

That brings me to #2

Respect for one's teachers:

All of your gung fu is indeed your own, Buddy. Earned through blood, sweat, and tears. I might mention that all the gung fu that Bruce has accumulated is also through his own blood, sweat, and tears...and if there's one thing to be said for Bruce, he can really sweat.

Yet every training I've ever been to has always been closed with a dedication to his teachers, specifically Liu Hung Chieh.

To differ from the one's teachers in practice and mindset can also be a form of respect, a show of dedication to the improvement of one's gung fu above merely being a yes man to the dogma of a system or man.

We should just never forget that it's dumb luck if we manage to find a teacher who can lead us to an excellent gate to walk through.

I do indeed remember the reference.

Regarding "palms to the back". My observations prove the opposite to the lovely Marisol's. Why do you need to "open" arm pits (I don't think this rotation does this at all)? The body is a very complicated and amazingly designed organism. Let's not mess with it. To do so is to put yourself in peril. If you look at particular practices (some martial arts shen fa practices, for instances), they are designed for very specific purposes, i.e. maximum amount of killing power in the shortest amount of time). Many times, these practices ignore what might be good for optimum health and happiness. So, do you want to kill without remorse? Or do you want a happy, healthy, possibly, holy life? Not saying that Bruce's so called TWT does this, but please don't follow blindly without questioning.

My own question is: Is anyone here adept in Hanna Somatics and if so, can you comment on these subjects? My friends Bernie Langan and John Luopos are forever trying to get me involved in this.


Hello Kristen, you asked me in the past about similarities or disparities between Alexander Tech. and standing qigong and AT similarities with Feldenkrais. Alexander was almost his contemporary a or even little older.

I had very little exposure with Feldenkrais Method but I often heard the two are either confused with one another or thought to be similar.

In some way there are parallels in the sense that both techniques aim to re-educate the nervous system in connection with habitual ways of moving (and thinking etc., ) which at present may not be the most effective. But what is unique in the AT is the idea of inhibition, which means withholding automatic response to any stimulus, and instead redirecting oneself by using a mind-body cooperation process into a more natural and balanced response to a stimulus; (a stimulus is anything that makes us respond with movement and with thought/emotion; the way you are reading this at the computer right now, how you are sitting, where is your head in relation to your spine, how you use your eyes, if you agree or disagree, etc., this combination of activities is your response to the stimulus of reading, it's a constant for every living being.)

This may sound a bit heady, but in reality is extremely practical.
One major feature of the AT is that essentially there are not exercises to regain good posture.
In fact it will not directly approach what is wrong with the body alignment, but it will give you a foundation to let the right, natural thing happen. But the problem with us human beings is our habitual tendency to try getting things right. In the AT we get to the thing we want (good posture for example , with an indirect procedure, bypassing our desire to be right, or assume the posture we think is right (inhibition) and then , making sure we are really not reacting, with our neck muscles being free, setting a pattern of release throughout the spine, torso, legs and head freed forward and up, we arrive in a sense to the balance (our innate uprightness) that is a result of releasing tension.

This is best tried in person, believe me. If you can find a teacher that can give a hands on experience of the above, you'll say: aha! There are actually many aha moments in AT lessons.

But now returning to standing qigong and the similarities with AT:
First of all I assume that standing qigong is a technique that if done correctly can help a person to open her body, to become healthy through the free flow of qi in the gates and meridians as well (…and much more)

The first similarity I see with the AT is the idea of raising the occiput to open the cervical spine or neck, minding the front of it as well.

The neck is very central to the AT especially in releasing it, not holding it into a position. When we learn an alignment we first learn it as something that we need to hold perhaps, versus to let it be free. The end result of the new exercise would be to become freer, but more often than not we tend to fixate. So our job as we hold the posture is continue direct the neck to be free to allow the occiput to lift up off the neck.

The chest hollowing and not moving can give lots of confusion, again if we "do it" we maybe forcing it down and even fix it , so the key word would be softening the chest, which in general in the western world we do tend to push out or inflate through a shallow breathing. As we let the chest soften down we raise the spine, sound familiar? Yes.

But one direction down can also pull the neck down into a compression, so again letting the neck be free allows the head to move up while we soften the chest. Arms rotating forward to open arm pits: this is a bit more of a rotation that we actually need in our daily life.

As I said I read in one Alexander book that when standing naturally with arms hanging the palms would be facing back, from the front we would see the dorsal part of the hands. But the risk here is to round a bit more to hold the position, and maybe getting a little of a hump in the upper back, which pulls down everything, and twisting the head of the upper arm a bit much towards the front (not minding the spiralling out of the humerus, I learned this the hard way! ouch!) In the AT again we go back to the neck and head, and once this little unit connected to everything else is released and directed we again can trust to rotate the arms as described in the standing qigong, with the lifting of the head to the sky, but without pulling up either, and again minding the opposing spiral-directions of the bones and muscles as well.

So you can see that all procedures can be checked using the Alexander technique, the standing Qigong should not be viewed as a posture per se, but more like a dynamic alignment of gates and openings and allowings, where you remain standing but in reality you are continually checking in to maintain the posture as free as possible.

I am sure you know this!

I remember from the EA training in 97 an example from a TV show, a cartoon maybe , that described this process of adjusting one thing, and seeing another one getting out: bear with me, I am not from the US and did not see this TV show; BKF using it as an example described a chest of drawers, with several drawers; you close one in (let say this means you lift the occiput) and the other comes out open (you raise the chest) …anyone remembers this? Maybe Buddy, I think he was there. So when we change something in the body's alignment, another part will tend to compensate with another form of pulling down or tensing up.

This is important to watch and stop from happening otherwise we will see a worsening in fact of our overall posture.

Generally our tendency is to DO and bring our postural habits in the new things we learn,. So, the directions in the standing qigong if performed incorrectly can indeed aggravate our tendencies. But I have also seen the reverse, meaning the standing qigong helped some people to acquire a better alignment overall even into daily life and normal activities, they actually learned from the prescribed alignment, I see this especially with people who have practiced Tai Chi a lot.

I do not think I can write briefly or concisely about this,but we could continue the discussion a bit at the time. I hope this was clear andfor me perhaps it makes me understand what Buddy says when he says: your method is killing you, from my perspective this would be: the way you practice the method is killing you, and yes killing is a strong word, we can even use the term damage, even seriously. (Your method is damaging you)

This subject at large is very important because again it brings to question where we are with our bodies when we learn something new, what are our pre-existing conditions in terms of habitual patterns in our posture when we are not practicing qigong; and then last but not least the way the teacher imparts the method, and how we tend to respond to what other people and teachers instruct, often blindly, because we do no know better, we go to a teacher to learn something new after all. And the teacher is not God, and his or her teaching maybe another piece of the important puzzle leading to our well being. It's not the whole picture. We must remember that too and maybe take a little more responsibility in our learning or perhaps to leave the questions open instead of thinking that we got the answer. (being in the unknown as Alexander Tech. explains)

PS regarding palms facing towards the back when standing relaxed doing nothing, I have observed that a well coordinated child has this pattern, unlike another one who has already lost the natural poise., so soon! If you observe an adult who "naturally" does not let her arms and hands hang like such, I bet this person has habits of holding her arms stiff, with the outside of elbows tips pointing toward the body instead of away from the body.

Wonderful post! Thanks for sharing some information about AT and the way it relates to qigong/taiji. I've always been curious about AT. I feel that you hit the nail on the head when talking about being less absorbed with the idea of maintaining a specific alignment, and more concerned with the positive sensations that a good alignment allows the body to feel.

Like Kristen, I have also at times shut my body down in places in the name of maintaining an alignment. Specifically, this has been true of the chest area as it relates to breathing. Alignment based upon holding through muscular force cannot be maintained comfortably (and as an extension, I'd add mental and emotional states to that list also). I have always had better success when finding what I need to allow to happen inside my body for an alignment to manifest, rather than focusing on what an alignment "should" feel like.

When I practice a specific alignment during standing now, I try to keep my mind on one and really follow its cascading effects throughout the system. In the past, and still now when I stop being as aware, I'd spend more time chasing the effects of an alignment and treating them as separate events to be dealt with individually. The result would be similar to what Marisol mentioned about the "one drawer shuts, another one opens" thing. But if I keep my mind on a specific alignment, say the occiput being open, and keep it steady in my awareness even as I experience the effects of that alignment moving through the rest of the body, then those effects and commensurate releases eventually create the space for the alignment of the occiput being open to actually stabilize and be there naturally.

A student of mine had once been experiencing nausea and light headed-ness when standing and almost passed out during class one day. This gentleman is quite body aware, but it turned out when I took a look at him that he was massively collapsing his chest on top of his diaphragm in the name of really getting his "belly to breathe". He has had decades of experience with diaphragmatic/belly breathing, but that began to take such precedence in his mind, that he was actually shutting down his breathing to accomplish it BETTER. It was a one minute fix to correct the alignment to moderate levels...and boom, no more nausea or lightheaded-ness.

It's amazing what we do to ourselves in the name of being right in lieu of being comfortable and natural.

The flip side of that I suppose, is that doing what is natural for the body and mind doesn't always feel good. It made me think of this when Ellen was talking about studying standing with Fong Ha. If the body and mind have habitually modified themselves to accomplish a task in a way that violates their natural design, a correction to this problem WILL yield temporary discomfort as our weak links are exposed. But excessive focus on what SHOULD be happening in the body creates a tension that masks what proper alignment actually FEELS like.

I guess that's the balance of studying alignment in my opinion. We benefit from the teaching of an ideal to strive toward, but must constantly test that ideal against our own experience of whether that alignment, or the way we are attempting to accomplish that alignment, is helping us to achieve the end goal of plugging in to our energy and removing any impediments to its flow.

Well, I like to join some ideas outside buddyline concerning this topic onAlexander technique and Qigong in my personal experience. In a rather early stage but already interested in acupuncture I readsomething about Alexander technique not really sharing the technique itself.

But intuitively I felt that it has something to do with the occiput as also Paul is stressing as a common point. A short look in exercises presented in the web the command is going with the neck forward and the same time upwards with the occiput. This reminds of the crane neck exercise though there the secret is sometimes described there by an acupoint below the chin for
turning the neck and head downward and upward in a sort of circle forward and later reversed with some trick by pressing the chin firmly on a point in this hole at the front of the beginning neck for getting at least free and loose movement.

Naturally the occiput or C 7 is included also in this process as the usual place of the throat chakra so important for your voice and speech ability which Alexander as an actor had lost and regained it by his methods.

But for me the intuitive point was thinking relaxed sittiing or even lying on occiput as a point. The effect was astonishing not doing much but letting it come. The whole body down to the toes was beginning to reorganize and realign itself in its positions removing certain obstacles.

I learnt that C 7 is the center for all muscles in the body controlling them also as acupoint I don't have the name at hand. But without a Qigong position I trained later for some years by Standing
still like a tree this is naturally no real training but more reflexes of the tensions you have in the body sometimes sold as high esoteric experiences as Mantak Chia sold it as his sharing of his high experiences In reality a beginner's state which has to be overcome.

So I had the luck to meet Master Lam Kham Chuen for a better training by the presence of the teacher getting to my astonishment more and better energies as by the high alchemical formulas of Mantak Chia admitting himself that there is not sufficient energy for them by training as a single person. So a rather weak transmission and more a happening for a weekend but not for constant training.

Here I got the effect of a better upright position and no longer shaking arms and body holding them before the chest by extending the training time and doing it for some years. Sunking in positions where not trained but only that you should guard your energies circled by the arms against attackers what did not interest me as a goal.

This cleansing process is similar to the positions of Hatha yoga or asanas trained some years before the real training is beginning which I saw not appearing by the intents of this master showing only some Dachenquan combat steps but for example in his walking not the real rather strenuos training of the real lines of it aimed a real combats.

A quick move to another master what hindered by a friend I helped to find good materials and teachers who got stuck there was not possible. So I missed the point of further materials of Bruce in his water dissolving techniques the whole body alongside I could not apply at that time by books and videos.

But this point came again by his breathing exercises giving me the necessary open energies in the bodies for further steps. Letting hang the arms the hands showing backwards surely I did also but with no good dropping of the shoulders often rather uneven, what only a mirror could show me by the dominance by writing hand.

The qigong standing position is not the whole thing but the working with the inner organs and energies and their connections to the meridians also outside the body you find also with Bruce beginning with the etheric field with some karmic inclusions. There even lying may be the better training type and described as advanced by Bruce.

By Master Zhankui Liu and his pupil Jane Jin I learnt the utmost importance for the normal layman of some breathing and cleansing exercises working in his case even with some kundalini like heat working the whole body but not so systematically as other systems in the organ systems.

Also by some hathayoga treatises and commentaries I learned this foremost importance of breathing and cleansing exercises - the famous ones of closing on noseside breathing with the other and reverse in the many types of such exercises - making also bodily exercises of hatha yoga type the higher forms of raja yoga.

This is not otherwise in Qigong training needing for the inner type of work much energies drawn beyond a mere breathing action the many elements of different forms of chi or prana.There you may feel yourself what is wrong in your body or position and compensate or correct it by itself. On this self-correcting effect of the breathing combined with massages and simple positions bases the 9 Dragon gates Qigong of Dr. Baolin Wu middling the body training of the Dragon sect. As they have their main taoist seat and monastery in Beijing it may well be that their are connections to Bruce teachers and Bruce should have visited this monastery.

I just don't have it in me to write it all out, and you've done well.I hope to see you at the Energy Arts Summer Training in "Ba Gua" and"San Ti Qi Gong" At Menlo College inAtherton, CA. (just down the same Street as Stanford University, this coming week...June 5th thru the 13 th.)

I won't be participating much...but John Lacey is here for the weekend, and we are working out the travel details. The Doctors won't allow me to fly to Crete, so I'll miss that wonderful offering / experience. Being one with one-Lung, I gravitate toward any and all Breathing Trainings.

BUT...I cannot stress the quality and content of what BK Frantzis will share regarding the "San Ti Qi Gung". Yes the Ba Gua will be outstanding, but for me, the "rubber-meets-the-road" in
San Ti and this "San Ti Qi Gong) (Chi Gung). When I hosted Master Frantzis here in Portland (OR) some years back we had over 150 in attendance for the San Ti Qi Gong. It is demanding, but gives so much, pure and simple. Since I perhaps won't be attending too many more of BK Frantzis' offerings, I do feel that this "San Ti Qi Gong" is well worth the investment in both Time and Money.

I hope to see many of you there, and I know some as far away as Boston will be coming to Menlo College just for the "San Ti Qi Gong"...because it is so fantastic...and well worth the time...

I am so hoping to get down to Menlo College this coming week, and thus hoping my particular medical problem resolves itself enough to do so. My main reason for attending the Teachings of BK Frantzis is first and foremost "to be there"...with my friends and bask in the energies, and the wonderful spirit that is always manifest at Kamp Kumar ! My world has shrunk as of late; and so my Computer and Phone are my main modes of outside contact. Getting to attend Kamp Kumar is a treat and a blessing...

Looking forward to chatting with you all there, and with the former FAT guy, who looks pretty good as of late.

Please leave me out of your reference if you don't want me involved. My name need not have been in your post, but that it was means you wanted to make a point about me. Don't. Leave personality out the issues. I thought that much was clear in my last post. More silly passive aggression.

C7 is not the occiput. Your entire thread of reasoning seems to be based on "intuition" rather than of actual instruction. You know what they say about a physician who is his own patient. Your neck should NOT go forward. You risk great harm holding this position. C7 is the "center for all muscles"? Please cite this source because in my opinion it is erroneous (please note: I first used the word- nonsense. I realize this word might be charged up. I still think it is appropriate, but I seek not to antagonize) As well, you seem to be saying that the neutral standing posture is not real training. Your "intuition" has lead you far astray if you believe this. Clearly, English is a language in which you do not express yourself naturally. And perhaps I have misconstrued your meaning to that end.

I certainly hope so. Well, I like to join some ideas outside buddyline concerning this topic on Alexander technique and Qigong in my personal experience.

In a rather early stage but already interested in acupuncture I read something about Alexander technique not really sharing the technique itself.

But intuitively I felt that it has something to do with the occiput as also Paul is stressing as a common point. A short look in exercises presented in the web the command is going with the neck forward and the same time upwards with the occiput. This reminds of the crane neck exercise though there the secret is sometimes described there by an acupoint below the chin for turning the neck and head downward and upward in a sort of circle forward and later reversed with some trick by pressing the chin firmly on a point in this hole at the front of the beginning neck for getting at least free and loose movement.

Naturally the occiput or C 7 is included also in this process as the usual place of the throat chakra so important for your voice and speech ability which Alexander as an actor had lost and regained it by his methods.

But for me the intuitive point was thinking relaxed sittiing or even lying on occiput as a point. The effect was astonishing not doing much but letting it come. The whole body down to the toes was beginning to reorganize and realign itself in its positions
removing certain obstacles.

I learnt that C 7 is the center for all muscles in the body controlling them also as acupoint I don't have the name at hand.

But without a Qigong position I trained later for some years by Standing still like a tree this is naturally no real training but more reflexes of the tensions you have in the body sometimes sold as high esoteric experiences as Mantak Chia sold it as his sharing of his high experiences In reality a beginner's state which has to be overcome.

So I had the luck to meet Master Lam Kham Chuen for a better training by the presence of the teacher getting to my astonishment more and better energies as by the high alchemical formulas of Mantak Chia admitting himself that there is not sufficient energy for them by training as a single person. So a rather weak transmission and more a happening for a weekend but not for constant training.

Here I got the effect of a better upright position and no longer shaking arms and body holding them before the chest by extending the training time and doing it for some years. Sunking in positions where not trained but only that you should guard your energies circled by the arms against attackers what did not interest me as a goal.

This cleansing process is similar to the positions of Hatha yoga or asanas trained some years before the real training is beginning which I saw not appearing by the intents of this master showing only some Dachenquan combat steps but for example in his walking not the real rather strenuos training of the real lines of it aimed a real combats.

A quick move to another master what hindered by a friend I helped to find good materials and teachers who got stuck there was not possible. So I missed the point of further materials of Bruce in his water dissolving techniques the whole body alongside I could not apply at that time by books and videos.

But this point came again by his breathing exercises giving me the necessary open energies in the bodies for further steps.

Letting hang the arms the hands showing backwards surely I did also but with no good dropping of the shoulders often rather uneven, what only a mirror could show me by the dominance by writing hand.

The qigong standing position is not the whole thing but the working with the inner organs and energies and their connections to the meridians also outside the body you find also with Bruce beginning with the etheric field with some karmic inclusions. There even lying may be the better training type and described as advanced by Bruce.

By Master Zhankui Liu and his pupil Jane Jin I learnt the utmost importance for the normal layman of some breathing and cleansing exercises working in his case even with some kundalini like heat working the whole body but not so systematically
as other systems in the organ systems.

Also by some hathayoga treatises and commentaries I learned this foremost importance of breathing and cleansing exercises - the famous ones of closing on noseside breathing with the other and reverse in the many types of such exercises - making also bodily exercises of hatha yoga type the higher forms of raja yoga.

This is not otherwise in Qigong training needing for the inner type of work much energies drawn beyond a mere breathing action the many elements of different forms of chi or prana.There you may feel yourself what is wrong in your body or position and compensate or correct it by itself. On this self-correcting effect of the breathing combined with massages and simple positions bases the 9 Dragon gates Qigong of Dr. Baolin Wu middling the body training of the Dragon sect. As they have their main taoist seat and monastery in Beijing it may well be that their are connections to Bruce teachers and Bruce should have visited this monastery.

Quarter Staff class in the Forest at South Lake Tahoe June 7

ALso, the Highland Broadsword masters like The Highland Officer warns you to engage swords (with a firm inside or outside guard) when advancing from out of measure. If you advance into lunging distance without blade contact you are in danger of being struck.

But, especially Silver although mentions crossing and uncrossing of blades often never mentions about making making blade contact or engaging swords to avoid the lunge attack.

Yes Silver knew about lunges - they weren't a big secret. In Paradoxes he does suggest that Open and Guardant are the best fight to use against a rapier, on the basis they are superior to Variable fight with a sword, and rapiers are in Variable too. But in Brief Instructions, he appears to have changed his mind somewhat, saying:

"Lye not aloft with your short sword if he lye alowe variable upon the Stocata or passata, etc., for then your space will be too wyde to make a true Cross in due time ... I say make your space narrow until you can cross his sword blade strongly and sodainly, so shall you put by his point out of the right line, and instantly strike or thrust, and slyp back according to your governors." So, why don't you check it against a lunge fencer? Is is it possible to defend against a lunge thrust.

You mean was Silver right about rapiers? ooo, big question. I would say, against a rapier-ist who is unfamiliar with the sword, yes Silver's tactics are very affective. But an experienced rapierist, familiar with the shordsword as well, can make it very difficult for the swordsman. Swetnam said: " if I have the Rapier and Dagger, I will hazard both games, and set against any man that holdeth the short sword to be a better weapon, although that George Giller hath most highly cõmended that short sword & dagger, yet one Swallow maketh not a Summer, nor two Woodcocks a Winter, if a thousand more were of his opinion, yet without all doubt there is a great deale more danger then at Rapier and Dagger; for he that fighteth with a short sword must adventure in pell mell without feare or wit, but I have seldome heard or seene any fight with short sword and dagger, although they be each weaponed alike, but one or both commeth home most grieuous ALso, the Highland Broadsword masters like The Highland Officer warns you to engage swords (with a firm inside or outside guard) when advancing from out of measure. If you advance into lunging distance; without blade contact you are in danger of being struck.>But, especially Silver although mentions crossing and uncrossing of blades often never mentions about making making blade contact or engaging swords to avoid the lunge attack.

That's basically what he means by making narrow space:

"Stay not with in distance of the long sword or rapier with your short sword, nor suffer him to win the place of you, but eyther Cross his sword, or make your space verye narrow to cross it before his blow or thrust be in force, yet keeping your distance where by he shall strike or thrust at nothing, and so he shall be subject to the time of your hand against the time of his feet."

I was asked to hold a quarterstaff class on the Monday following Tahoe faire in South Lake Tahoe in Camp Richardson on June 7. This class will begin Monday morning at 11am and go till 3pm. I am teaching this class in Tahoe because I will be doing this class in Santa Clara on June 12 and this is the second weekend of the Tahoe faire and the people that are staying for the week in South Late Tahoe will not be able to attend the quarterstaff class at the sword school.

This month we will be looking at the use of the quarter staff as it was used in the late medieval and renaissance periods. The basis for this course is treatises from England and Italy. Some of the manuscripts that we will pull information from are;

Ø Joseph Swetnam (1617)
Ø George Silver (1599)
Ø Giacomo di Grassi (1570)
Ø And spear techniques of Fiore dei Liberi (1409)

We will learn the guards of the staff, the way to transition from one side to the other side whilst maintaining a defensive position of the staff, and the offensive use of the staff. We will also learn how to move to 'half staff' and close the distance of the fight and use the staff in more of the way that it is often used in the movies that we all know and have seen.

While we will not be doing an exhaustive study of each of these manuscripts, we will be able to look at the similarities and differences between the techniques put forth in them.

This class is a sample four hour class that will show the student some of the use of the quarterstaff in a martial use.

When: June 7, 2010
Time: 11:00am â€" 3:00pm
Where: Camp Richardson - Tahoe Faire
South Lake Tahoe, CA 96158
Cost: $50.00

Equipment: Fencing Helmet, Gloves, Staff, Elbow Guard (not required) You do not need this equipment but if you do have it please bring it with you as we may do techniques that can create contact. If students do not have this equipment we will use techniques that do not strike the head. All contact that occurs between the students will be controlled and soft.

If you do not have a staff, you can pick up a closet dowel at a hardware store for very little money. A 1 inch staff of approximately 5 â€" 6 feet (depending on how tall you are) will be the weapon of the day. You will want the staff to be about 4 inches taller than you.

We will hold this class a second time in Santa Clara at the Salle d'Armes. This will be the same class in Santa Clara as is being taught in South Lake Tahoe.

When: June 12, 2010
Time: 9:30am â€" 2:00pm
Where: 3233 De La Cruz, Unit F
Santa Clara, CA 95054
Cost: $50.00

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to call me to ask. I look forward to seeing you at the class!

Steaphen Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes School (DEMAS)
3233 De La Cruz, Unit F
Santa Clara, CA 95054
408-776-6808 Message
408-857-0120 cell
author of 'The Beginner's Guide to the Long Sword'
www.swordfightingschool.com

Holiday weekend...solo training today but first...

On Wed I had Chris and Guv out and we worked through a nice combo: low lead hook followed by a high lead hook with a passing step to your inside, slight body shift when delivering the next blow a straight rear to the head, followed by a lead leg fouette to the inside of the thigh then a rear leg chausson to the gut. We went through several variations of this and built it up from the first two punches slowly.

Chris and Guv sparred two rounds as well and they really beat the hell outta each other the first round...just pure aggression. Maybe not the best way to train or even fight but highly entertaining:) The second round I had them move more and punch less, working more with the
concept of reacting to the opponent rather than just both wailing away.

We finished with about 45 mins of mountain axe work concentrating on blocking incoming blows with the head and following with a butt smash then a step back and downward blow.

So today for me (pretty much what I do three times a week anyway with two days S&C):
4 rounds of shadow boxing
3 rounds heavy bag
1 round floor bag
2 rounds freestyle footwork
3 rounds navaja work
4 rounds e-tool work
3 rounds shillelagh

What are you folks all up to?

Sunday, May 30, 2010

Alexander Technique (AT) and Qigong, some thoughts

Grammar? Please point out the error of my grammar. Please go fuck yourself somewhere else. Your own irony fails you...always?

I don't want to insult you because you are a foreigner but your criticism of my use of my native tongue is not only erroneous, it's laughable. As are most of your posts. You never add anything to these conversations, just idle commentary. Your fortune cookie platitudes lack any insight, humor, or interest. You are, in a word, jejune. Let me leave you with (unfortunately once again) your own words, that the irony might sink into your thick skull: "You don´t have to read the mail if you don´t like it. Just erase it!"

you just do not learn! First, go back to grammar school and try seriously to learn a little English. Then try a few vitamins or something so that you make things function. And then work on that anti-human chip you always have on your shoulder. Normally I'd try to stay on topic, but I'm compelled at the moment to butt my head where it doesn't belong and comment on this exchange. Namely, this is for the reason that I believe good topics get obscured by a volume of useless exchanges. Two things:

Useful Messaging:

Armando, though I don't always agree with the way that Buddy makes points, he does generally make some. Witness the highly productive thread on alignment.Controversial...but specific, referenced, and useful. While your demeanor online is what I consider to be very pleasant and nice (you certainly have Buddy beat here), the content of your messages is usually quite thin.

I get the most out of posts on this board that are on a certain topic, specific, referenced by the experience of poster (i.e. it feels like this), and where the source of said material is mentioned. You may well have much to offer, but please do it in a way that is not only pleasant in language, but specific and applicable to group consumption.

Buddy, enough with whole "I don't give a damn" line. Those who don't give a damn, don't respond.

You know someone who doesn't give a damn...Bruce Frantzis. This board has his picture on it and is largely absorbed in posts that reference his materials. We say whatever we want about him and and his system, good and bad. We call him fat, and unpleasant, and highly skilled. This is just one corner of the internet. There are many others doing the same thing.

Yet, we will most likely never see Bruce personally commenting on this forum. He seems far too busy teaching, and generating books, web content, and learning materials on qigong, IMA, and meditation that span an entire globe. He says, "Here the best stuff I have to offer...in print, DVD, blog, and person. Practice it or don't. I hope that you do, but I don't give a damn."

And he doesn't.

That brings me to #2

Respect for one's teachers:

All of your gung fu is indeed your own, Buddy. Earned through blood, sweat, and tears. I might mention that all the gung fu that Bruce has accumulated is also through his own blood, sweat, and tears...and if there's one thing to be said for Bruce, he can really sweat.

Yet every training I've ever been to has always been closed with a dedication to his teachers, specifically Liu Hung Chieh.

To differ from the one's teachers in practice and mindset can also be a form of respect, a show of dedication to the improvement of one's gung fu above merely being a yes man to the dogma of a system or man.

We should just never forget that it's dumb luck if we manage to find a teacher who can lead us to an excellent gate to walk through.

Hello Kristen, you asked me in the past about similarities or disparities between Alexander Tech. and standing qigong and AT similarities with Feldenkrais. Alexander was almost his contemporary a or even little older.

I had very little exposure with Feldenkrais Method but I often heard the two are either confused with one another or thought to be similar. In some way there are parallels in the sense that both techniques aim to re-educate the nervous system in connection with habitual ways of moving (and thinking etc., ) which at present may not be the most effective. But what is unique in the AT is the idea of inhibition, which means withholding automatic response to any stimulus, and instead redirecting oneself by using a mind-body cooperation process into a more natural and balanced response to a stimulus; (a stimulus is anything that makes us respond with movement and with thought/emotion; the way you are reading this at the computer right now, how you are sitting, where is your head in relation to your spine, how you use your eyes, if you agree or disagree, etc., this combination of activities is your response to the stimulus of reading, it's a constant for every living being.)

This may sound a bit heady, but in reality is extremely practical. One major feature of the AT is that essentially there are not exercises to regain good posture. In fact it will not directly approach what is wrong with the body alignment, but it will give you a foundation to let the right, natural thing happen. But the problem with us human beings is our habitual tendency to try getting things right. In the AT we get to the thing we want (good posture for example , with an indirect procedure, bypassing our desire to be right, or assume the posture we think is right (inhibition) and then , making sure we are really not reacting, with our neck muscles being free, setting a pattern of release throughout the spine, torso, legs and head freed forward and up, we arrive in a sense to the balance (our innate uprightness) that is a result of releasing tension. This is best tried in person, believe me. If you can find a teacher that can give a hands on experience of the above, you'll say: aha! There are actually many aha moments in AT lessons.

But now returning to standing qigong and the similarities with AT: First of all I assume that standing qigong is a technique that if done correctly can help a person to open her body, to become healthy through the free flow of qi in the gates and meridians as well (…and much more)
The first similarity I see with the AT is the idea of raising the occiput to open the cervical spine or neck, minding the front of it as well. The neck is very central to the AT especially in releasing it, not holding it into a position. When we learn an alignment we first learn it as something that we need to hold perhaps, versus to let it be free. The end result of the new exercise would be to become freer, but more often than not we tend to fixate. So our job as we hold the posture is continue direct the neck to be free to allow the occiput to lift up off the neck.

The chest hollowing and not moving can give lots of confusion, again if we "do it" we maybe forcing it down and even fix it , so the key word would be softening the chest, which in general in the western world we do tend to push out or inflate through a shallow breathing. As we let the chest soften down we raise the spine, sound familiar? Yes. But one direction down can also pull the neck down into a compression, so again letting the neck be free allows the head to move up while we soften the chest. Arms rotating forward to open arm pits: this is a bit more of a rotation that we actually need in our daily life. As I said I read in one Alexander book that when standing naturally with arms hanging the palms would be facing back, from the front we would see the dorsal part of the hands. But the risk here is to round a bit more to hold the position, and maybe getting a little of a hump in the upper back, which pulls down everything, and twisting the head of the upper arm a bit much towards the front (not minding the spiralling out of the humerus, I learned this the hard way! ouch!)

In the AT again we go back to the neck and head, and once this little unit connected to everything else is released and directed we again can trust to rotate the arms as described in the standing qigong, with the lifting of the head to the sky, but without pulling up either, and again minding the opposing spiral-directions of the bones and muscles as well.

So you can see that all procedures can be checked using the Alexander technique, the standing Qigong should not be viewed as a posture per se, but more like a dynamic alignment of gates and openings and allowings, where you remain standing but in reality you are continually checking in to maintain the posture as free as possible.

I am sure you know this!

I remember from the EA training in 97 an example from a TV show, a cartoon maybe , that described this process of adjusting one thing, and seeing another one getting out: bear with me, I am not from the US and did not see this TV show; BKF using it as an example described a chest of drawers, with several drawers; you close one in (let say this means you lift the occiput) and the other comes out open (you raise the chest) …anyone remembers this? Maybe Buddy, I think he was there. So when we change something in the body's alignment, another part will tend to compensate with another form of pulling down or tensing up.

This is important to watch and stop from happening otherwise we will see a worsening in fact of our overall posture.

Generally our tendency is to DO and bring our postural habits in the new things we learn,. So, the directions in the standing qigong if performed incorrectly can indeed aggravate our tendencies. But I have also seen the reverse, meaning the standing qigong helped some people to acquire a better alignment overall even into daily life and normal activities, they actually learned from the prescribed alignment, I see this especially with people who have practiced Tai Chi a lot.

I do not think I can write briefly or concisely about this,but we could continue the discussion a bit at the time. I hope this was clear andfor me perhaps it makes me understand what Buddy says when he says: your method is killing you, from my perspective this would be: the way you practice the method is killing you, and yes killing is a strong word, we can even use the term damage, even seriously. (Your method is damaging you) This subject at large is very important because again it brings to question where we are with our bodies when we learn something new, what are our pre-existing conditions in terms of habitual patterns in our posture when we are not practicing qigong; and then last but not least the way the teacher imparts the method, and how we tend to respond to what other people and teachers instruct, often blindly, because we do no know better, we go to a teacher to learn something new after all. And the teacher is not God, and his or her teaching maybe another piece of the important puzzle leading to our well being. It's not the whole picture. We must remember that too and maybe take a little more responsibility in our learning or perhaps to leave the questions open instead of thinking that we got the answer. (being in the unknown as Alexander Tech. explains)

PS regarding palms facing towards the back when standing relaxed doing nothing, I have observed that a well coordinated child has this pattern, unlike another one who has already lost the natural poise., so soon! :(

If you observe an adult who "naturally" does not let her arms and hands hang like such, I bet this person has habits of holding her arms stiff, with the outside of elbows tips pointing toward the body instead of away from the body.

*Sorry if this shows up twice. Can't tell if I actually sent it*Wonderful post! Thanks for sharing some information about AT and the way it relates to qigong/taiji. I've always been curious about AT. I feel that you hit the nail on the head when talking about being less absorbed with the idea of maintaining a specific alignment, and more concerned with the positive sensations that a good alignment allows the body to feel.

Like Kristen, I have also at times shut my body down in places in the name of maintaining an alignment. Specifically, this has been true of the chest area as it relates to breathing. Alignment based upon holding through muscular force cannot be maintained comfortably (and as an extension, I'd add mental and emotional states to that list also). I have always had better success when finding what I need to allow to happen inside my body for an alignment to manifest, rather than focusing on what an alignment "should" feel like.

When I practice a specific alignment during standing now, I try to keep my mind on one and really follow its cascading effects throughout the system. In the past, and still now when I stop being as aware, I'd spend more time chasing the effects of an alignment and treating them as separate events to be dealt with individually. The result would be similar to what Marisol mentioned about the "one drawer shuts, another one opens" thing. But if I keep my mind on a specific alignment, say the occiput being open, and keep it steady in my awareness even as I experience the effects of that alignment moving through the rest of the body, then those effects and commensurate releases eventually create the space for the alignment of the occiput being open to actually stabilize and be there naturally.

A student of mine had once been experiencing nausea and light headed-ness when standing and almost passed out during class one day. This gentleman is quite body aware, but it turned out when I took a look at him that he was massively collapsing his chest on top of his diaphragm in the name of really getting his "belly to breathe". He has had decades of experience with diaphragmatic/belly breathing, but that began to take such precedence in his mind, that he was actually shutting down his breathing to accomplish it BETTER. It was a one minute fix to correct the alignment to moderate levels...and boom, no more nausea or lightheaded-ness.

It's amazing what we do to ourselves in the name of being right in lieu of being comfortable and natural.

The flip side of that I suppose, is that doing what is natural for the body and mind doesn't always feel good. It made me think of this when Ellen was talking about studying standing with Fong Ha. If the body and mind have habitually modified themselves to accomplish a task in a way that violates their natural design, a correction to this problem WILL yield temporary discomfort as our weak links are exposed. But excessive focus on what SHOULD be happening in the body creates a tension that masks what proper alignment actually FEELS like.

I guess that's the balance of studying alignment in my opinion. We benefit from the teaching of an ideal to strive toward, but must constantly test that ideal against our own experience of whether that alignment, or the way we are attempting to accomplish that alignment, is helping us to achieve the end goal of plugging in to our energy and removing any impediments to its flow.

"Training In Stockton"!

Hi everyone.This coming Thursday we will be joining Jason's class at "Club Fit"4950 Claremont Ave./Stockton,CA 95207.Club Fit is located at Yokuts Ave. and Claremont Ave.Training starts at 8:00-9:30PM.Be sure to bring a training kusari fundo.On Thursday/10 June '10,we'll be traveling to Traditional Martial Arts in Tracy to train with Shannon's class.More details on this one next week.Have a great Memorial Day weekend.Take care!

Stephen Hand's book on George Silver

Silver's work, besides its complete description of English small sword fighting and weapons fighting in general, was originally a reactionary against the rapier thrust fencing.So, why don't you check it against a lunge fencer? Is is it possible to defend against a lunge thrust.What I think is one should cover the options of thrusting before the actual commencing of the lunge thrust itself and strike him using the "time of hand" which he will find it difficult to parry as he is in variable fight position(his space too wide).

That's why the guardant fight seems to be most effective against the lunge type fighter than the open fight which Silver seems to suggest against the rapier fencing.

Generally, can a lunge step thrust can be parried say at a 3 feet distance and what is the least distance that a lunge step thrust comes close to the speed of the "time of hand" and or in other terms can not be parried.

Are these factors must be kept under consideration while fighting especially against a rapier fencing? and Was these factors known to George Silver? i.e did Silver know about the lunge step? if yes,then why did he suggested open fight instead of the guardant fight against the variable fight.Also it is generally said that ,at his time the lunge step was a closely guarded secret of Italian fencing.

IMHO, Not standing immobile in front of the opponent especially at a lunging distance 'cause lunge fencers need some one to stand stationary against them to get their lunge going and if someone uses angels and covers their lunge options using guardant.


Saturday, May 29, 2010

"cherry bomb" song

Thank you! Too bad I don't have Round 10...I certainly remember doing that round though a LONG time ago!

Your method is killing you!

Forgive me all for lashing dead horses from back on May 10th: I have been away a bit. While I certainly agree that the tendency toward dogmaticism is a problem that oneshould watch out for, I find the vulgar language totally uncalled for. Everybody has a rightto express themselves here. You don´t have to read the mail if you don´t like it. Just erase it!

As well, reading through these last few mails, there seems to be a confusion in the language. I think each has its place and purpose. It is merely that one must clarify what he wants to do or accomplish and deal with each in its own context. When you start crossing these lines, you accomplish little. Could that be associated with that expression you Yanks have of "cutting off your nose for spite of your face".......or something like that? And, yes, I agree: Alfred, your notes are definitely not too long!

I recently did a Yiquan workshop with Fong Ha where his approach to 'standing' was more about determining what's YOUR natural comfortable posture rather than following a rigid set of 'rules' or alignments set by another person. I realize that the standard alignments are necessary to some degree but it was extremely freeing to practice standing with him in this way.

Def in agreement about William's comments [YAWN]...seriously? William, shut. the. fuck. up. Anyways...Its nice to hear someone actually challenge and/or disagree with what's being taught by certain instructors. One of the most frustrating & annoying aspects of training with Bruce is people's willingness to blindly follow EVERYTHING he says and never question anything he teaches. The postural issue is a BIG one and this discussion, especially the input from senior teachers/practition ers and bodyworkers is extremely helpful! (Alfred~ your posts are NOT too long, I'm learning tons from your comments. thanks).

Well with regards to William, I suspect he read my post as a sycophant to have up come up with his comments. I hope it is understood that my post was meant as a help.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Alfred, with your comments about the musculature of the yao/kua. And yes, lordosis is a real threat in our culture. Thanks for your input.

I want to acknowlege William's comments and I agree that quite often folks get involved in ego matches and cut downs. I am not trying to engage in such. I am acctually very excited to be in this conversation. These postural and functional movement issues are very facinating to me. That being said I would like to continue with some other thoughts that I have had.

Most of the lower back issues that I see in my practice involve a hyper lordosis or swayback. Many of the things that we do in our modern lifestyle as well as some sport activities conspire to create this posture. The area most usually affected is the L4-L5 juncture which naturally has more curve than the others. This results in an anterior tilt to the pelvis.

Our practice of holding the pelvis posterior or tucked under and pressing the lower back out in some ways corrects this, even overcorrects.

In many therapeutic settings clients will be taught to exercise/engage their abdominals so as to bring balance to the pelvis. One thing that is often overlooked and yet essential is the Psoas and the illiacus and their role in balance and power. So many people have adaptivly shortened psoas. Quite often this comes from sitting too much.

If you tighten abs and hold the pelvis tucked then the spine will usually align correctly but now it is compressed and locked. The abs and the glutes and the deep six rotators are all in a lockdown struggle against the QL and the Illiopsoas group. Now what you have is good posture but no mobility.

What we want to create is proper structure with mobility. In this the pelvis is mobile and can tilt forward and back as needed. Our objective is to have a L4-L5-sacral region that feels "floaty" and loose. This way we can create wave motion that emminates from pelvic rocking and transfers smoothly through the spine picking up more power as it travels.

We want the pelvis to be mobile so that it can feel and follow and adjust to outside influences. Then when needed it can lock down and then release. There is more, like I said this is a subject that facinates me, but I will shut up for now as this post has run very long.

................WELL! I guess I haven´t been gone quite SO long after all! But that would only add to the waste on this site, and as we know, people do like to waste time and say things rather contra....well !

Ellen... I like what you said, but how do you really feel ?

I recently did a Yiquan workshop with Fong Ha where his approach to 'standing' was more about determining what's YOUR natural comfortable posture rather than following a rigid set of 'rules' or alignments set by another person. I realize that the standard alignments are necessary to some degree but it was extremely freeing to practice standing with him in this way.

Def in agreement about William's comments [YAWN]...seriously? William, shut. the. fuck. up. Anyways...Its nice to hear someone actually challenge and/or disagree with what's being taught by certain instructors. One of the most frustrating & annoying aspects of training with Bruce is people's willingness to blindly follow EVERYTHING he says and never question anything he teaches. The postural issue is a BIG one and this discussion, especially the input from senior teachers/practition ers and bodyworkers is extremely helpful! (Alfred~ your posts are NOT too long, I'm learning tons from your comments. thanks).

Well with regards to William, I suspect he read my post as a sycophant to have up come up with his comments. I hope it is understood that my post was meant as a help.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Alfred, with your comments about the musculature of the yao/kua. And yes, lordosis is a real threat in our culture. Thanks for your input.

I want to acknowlege William's comments and I agree that quite often folks get involved in ego matches and cut downs. I am not trying to engage in such. I am acctually very excited to be in this conversation. These postural and functional movement issues are very facinating to me. That being said I would like to continue with some other thoughts that I have had.

Most of the lower back issues that I see in my practice involve a hyper lordosis or swayback. Many of the things that we do in our modern lifestyle as well as some sport activities conspire to create this posture. The area most usually affected is the L4-L5 juncture which naturally has more curve than the others. This results in an anterior tilt to the pelvis.

Our practice of holding the pelvis posterior or tucked under and pressing the lower back out in some ways corrects this, even overcorrects.

In many therapeutic settings clients will be taught to exercise/engage their abdominals so as to bring balance to the pelvis. One thing that is often overlooked and yet essential is the Psoas and the illiacus and their role in balance and power. So many people have adaptivly shortened psoas. Quite often this comes from sitting too much.

If you tighten abs and hold the pelvis tucked then the spine will usually align correctly but now it is compressed and locked. The abs and the glutes and the deep six rotators are all in a lockdown struggle against the QL and the Illiopsoas group. Now what you have is good posture but no mobility.

What we want to create is proper structure with mobility. In this the pelvis is mobile and can tilt forward and back as needed. Our objective is to have a L4-L5-sacral region that feels "floaty" and loose. This way we can create wave motion that emminates from pelvic rocking and transfers smoothly through the spine picking up more power as it travels.

We want the pelvis to be mobile so that it can feel and follow and adjust to outside influences. Then when needed it can lock down and then release.

There is more, like I said this is a subject that facinates me, but I will shut up for now as this post has run very long.

There's still time to do so............... ....WELL! I guess I haven´t been gone quite SO long after all! Armando


"You don´t have to read the mail if you don´t like it. Just erase it!"

Surely you realize the irony of this statement...perhaps not.

"I find the vulgar language totally uncalled for."

Uhhhh, see above.

"Could that be associated with that expression you Yanks have of "cutting off your nose for spite of your face"....... or something like that?"

You Yanks...how parochial.

"It is merely that one must clarify what he wants to do or accomplish and deal with each in its own context. When you start crossing these lines, you accomplish little."

You mean you absorbed little. The problem lies in your comprehension. And did I mention you added little (or nothing) to the current discussion beyond your typical bitch session?

Forgive me all for lashing dead horses from back on May 10th: I have been away a bit. While I certainly agree that the tendency toward dogmaticism is a problem that one

should watch out for, I find the vulgar language totally uncalled for. Everybody has a right to express themselves here. You don´t have to read the mail if you don´t like it. Just erase it!

As well, reading through these last few mails, there seems to be a confusion in the language. I think each has its place and purpose. It is merely that one must clarify what he wants to do or accomplish and deal with each in its own context. When you start crossing these lines, you accomplish little. Could that be associated with that expression you Yanks have of "cutting off your nose for spite of your face"....... or something like that?

YES! Bernie is exactly right! Expanding mingmen is the proper way of forming the connection to the ground, NOT tucking the tailbone. Thanks. Bernie repeatedly drummed into my head never to use the word "tuck" because he said that that would cause people to contract in a way that was harmful to them. He would say to roll the pelvis slightly forward. After taking BK's Energy Gates, I had been trying to continually tuck and had actually lost range of movement in the sacrum which I had to work back into for proper spinal motion. Of course, Bernie also taught about extending the mingmen back as does BK in Bend the Bow. I've done some of the Hanna Somatics floor exercises for getting the spine back into shape after getting slammed from behind by a truck at a stop sign. That happened twice in three years. I told folks I wasn't going to stop any more because it was too dangerous. Those exercises got all the trauma from the whiplash out in under a year. Physical therapy was $50 a pop, twice a week, and not covered by my cheap insurance. The used book was under ten dollars and

intergrated other body movements more clearly as well. It was a deal.

The body has a natural curve in the lumbar area and to force this curve to flatten by tucking the coccyx under is to defeat the body's inherent design function. I think it is fine to push out the lumbar, particularly in motion. But, in my opinion students hear the words wei lu zhong zheng and translate it as tuck the tailbone. Why? Why is this neccesary? Power? I don't think so. I also think that constant squatting builds the yao/kua in ways that westerners can't experience. AS far as xan xiong ba bei, I think geek neck is an understatement. I've seen (and had) a lot of kyphosis.

I take your point the xan xiong ba bei can be practiced in a sloppy way and become a geek neck with a dash of kyphosis. I'm curious to hear more about the second statement "As well, do NOT, when standing in zhan zhuan wei lu zhong zheng. This is contraindicative for westerners who are used to constant squatting." (I know you meant, "not used to squatting"). This seems like a question of method, whereas the first point is more about how people misunderstand and practice the principle.

IME, standing and trying to achieve the internal alignments that I've learned from Bruce and the senior instructors has given me a more unified sense of my body and in turn, it has been a rewarding challenge to learn how to apply them to moving forms.

As far as natural posture and shen fa go, it depends....you are always going to be trading "natural posture" for the way you choose to use your body. Depending on what and how much you practice, you might be choosing a high degree of adaptation and move away from what is natural (see Wolf's law and Davis' law -- bone and soft tissue, respectively, remodel according to the forces imposed on them). This is why an NFL linebacker will never win the Kentucky Derby -- at least not as a jockey.

I agree with you that the question of health should be paramount and that should inform the choice for 99% of people.

Thanks for bringing up these practice red flags, though. Always helpful to discuss.

I would definitely add three cents to it to make a nickel! Although I do think one should always have the brain functioning and alert........like a sword, it has two edges: and you can either (as someone once said) cut off the boil of ignorance and darkness, or decapitate oneself. I strongly dislike dogmatism, but I think too "open" a mind just produces fiddle-faddle which is, finally, obstructive of really deep and substantial development. Armando Like many others, I have followed this thread with interest and found valuable and substantive comments on it. I came to BKF's lineage after studying with several other teachers and my only regret is that I didn't land here sooner. While experience has taught me that it's important to maintain an attitude of critical inquiry in any internal school, the fact is that the corrections I have received from the current head of the school, and all of the instructors who have generously offered up their insights, have only been positive and helpful and my practice has been immeasurably enhanced.

While every teacher in the world can be subjected to valid criticism, I always find it curious, and a little sad, when people with tangible skill and a positive reputation turn around and criticize the methods or the teachers who gave them the foundation for that skill and reputation.

Just my two cents.

Fantastic note! Balanced and clear and I agree almost totally with you. But, again, sometimes people have language habits that are simply inadequate in certain situations, but they try to make do.........and just slough over the moments and incidents where it doesn´t seem to work so well. These persons may have valid things to say, but just do not know how to express themselves well........except to people who are on that same "habit-wave length". And there are others who can participate "there", but are also able to function in other types of environments. Both may be very valuable......but one sometimes has to have handy their handy-dandy Captain Midnight de-coder.

I have learned hard lessons about shelving critical thinking and swallowing teachings and practices, and I am too old and cynical to buy into personality cults. As I said, valid criticisms can be leveled at every teacher, and I don't think Kumar walks on water.

I don't claim to have high level skills for good reason, but I have some skill, and some discernment about what constitutes good teaching, and good methods. That said, Kumar's teachings have enhanced my practice which in turn enhances my life. His methods are in fact superior to any others I have experienced. And I'm pretty sure they're not killing me.

I haven't had the pleasure of making Buddy's acquaintance, though I've heard him mentioned by many Energy Arts students in the short time I've been involved, and have gathered that he invested a great deal of time and energy studying with BKF and developed tangible skill. Among those that I've heard speak of him, he has a good reputation as a skillful martial arts practitioner and teacher. In short, people I respect, respect him....

Having studied with and left a number of schools and teachers in my wake, I trust that he (Buddy) has valid reasons for no longer being "in the fold", but I'm not curious about or interested in those reasons, because I have valid reasons for currently being in the aforementioned fold.

So Buddy, to answer your question in response to my previous post: "Why is that, Bruce?"

Let me ask who you would be, and what level of skill you would possess if you'd never studied with Kumar?

Isn't this a man and a method you've received immense value from? Isn't this a man and a method you owe a substantial percentage of your internal arts skill to? Isn't this a man and a method that has played an important and positive role in your life? And even if you have valid criticisms, isn't the title of the thread a bit of melodramatic hyperbole? What damage have you suffered from following his training methods?

I may have it all wrong, and I apologize if I do.... but I find your criticisms curious and sad that's all. Like I would find it curious and sad if someone said, "My father loved me and he raised me to be a good man, and when he died he left me a fortune..... But I go to his grave and piss on it every day because goddamnit, he didn't buy me the bicycle I wanted when I was ten."

Well, I really did not want to say anything negative to "touch you off" - it seems to be so easy to do so - but it is nice to know that I am not the only one you feel the need to insult because of such a superior sense that you never have to give a damn. Your detailed reply.....well, at least you sort of tried!......was really weird and pathetic and irrational. What is your problem, Buddy? Why don´t you finally grow up? You say some very good stuff sometimes, and have obviously had a lot of good experience and capacity, so why do you still have that necessity to use that to slap people in the face. It really is rather infantile. Pity you do not want to really be a part of the human race. It is pretty nice a lot of the time.

Sigh. I am not usually given to explaining my motives nor caring about other's opinions. I simply cannot be bothered to be interested in the countless reputations I might gather. As most who know me understand, I have a very rich and fulfilled life.

"Isn't this a man and a method you've received immense value from?"

All the skill I have ever gained has been my own gongfu. A teacher can only point the way. Kumar pointed A way. Not the way. I have seen the good and the bad. I've weighed both and the results should be obvious.

"Isn't this a man and a method you owe a substantial percentage of your internal arts skill to?"

See above. ALL my skill comes from my own practice and research. There is information. From this, with practice, can come knowledge. Skill is an entirely different matter.

"Isn't this a man and a method that has played an important and positive role in your life?"

Important yes. In both directions. Positive? We wouldn't be having this dicussion if that answer was not also obvious. There are many stories and tales I am not willing to tell. Some I have elsewhere. If these sordid issues interest you they can be found.

"And even if you have valid criticisms, isn't the title of the thread a bit of melodramatic hyperbole?"

Hmmm. You might think so. Your opinion about this doesn't matter to me one way or the other. And since words have actual meanings, you'd have to define your use of 'hyperbole' here.

"What damage have you suffered from following his training methods?"

My physical issues may have a number of causes, I don't know. That does not negate the fact that the method seriously violates quite obvious kinesthtic principles. Let's not make this about personalities.

"I may have it all wrong, and I apologize if I do.... but I find your criticisms curious and sad that's all."

And I am not without experience with such passive aggressive clap trap. " Like I would find it curious and sad if someone said, "My father loved me and he raised me to be a good man, and when he died he left me a fortune..... But I go to his grave and piss on it every day because goddamnit, he didn't buy me the bicycle I wanted when I was ten."

I cannot buy into your "curious and sad" mindset. Take what I say, or leave it. It doesn't matter to me. I'm not your teacher so we owe each other nothing. You've heard from those who know me, some who have learned from me. Beyond that I have nothing to offer you. My thoughts and teachings stand for themselves. React as you will to them. But please, leave the psycho babble out of it for me. I'm immune.

Fair enough, good luck with all that. Sigh. I am not usually given to explaining my motives nor caring about other's opinions. I simply cannot be bothered to be interested in the countless reputations I might gather. As most who know me understand, I have a very rich and fulfilled life.

"Isn't this a man and a method you've received immense value from?"

All the skill I have ever gained has been my own gongfu. A teacher can only point the way. Kumar pointed A way. Not the way. I have seen the good and the bad. I've weighed both and the results should be obvious.

"Isn't this a man and a method you owe a substantial percentage of your internal arts skill to?"

See above. ALL my skill comes from my own practice and research. There is information. From this, with practice, can come knowledge. Skill is an entirely different matter.

"Isn't this a man and a method that has played an important and positive role in your life?"

Important yes. In both directions. Positive? We wouldn't be having this dicussion if that answer was not also obvious. There are many stories and tales I am not willing to tell. Some I have elsewhere. If these sordid issues interest you they can be found.

"And even if you have valid criticisms, isn't the title of the thread a bit of melodramatic hyperbole?"

Hmmm. You might think so. Your opinion about this doesn't matter to me one way or the other. And since words have actual meanings, you'd have to define your use of 'hyperbole' here.

"What damage have you suffered from following his training methods?"

My physical issues may have a number of causes, I don't know. That does not negate the fact that the method seriously violates quite obvious kinesthtic principles. Let's not make this about personalities.

"I may have it all wrong, and I apologize if I do.... but I find your criticisms curious and sad that's all."

And I am not without experience with such passive aggressive clap trap.

" Like I would find it curious and sad if someone said, "My father loved me and he raised me to be a good man, and when he died he left me a fortune..... But I go to his grave and piss on it every day because goddamnit, he didn't buy me the bicycle I wanted when I was ten."

I cannot buy into your "curious and sad" mindset. Take what I say, or leave it. It doesn't matter to me. I'm not your teacher so we owe each other nothing. You've heard from those who know me, some who have learned from me. Beyond that I have nothing to offer you. My thoughts and teachings stand for themselves. React as you will to them. But please, leave the psycho babble out of it for me. I'm immune.

You know Bruce Hayden so well? No? Then why the presumption..............again!I have been fortunate to study with a number of world class teachers for many years. Luo Dexiu and Victor DeThouars to name two. Perhaps you should get out more.

Fair enough, good luck with all that.
Sigh. I am not usually given to explaining my motives nor caring about other's opinions. I simply cannot be bothered to be interested in the countless reputations I might gather. As most who know me understand, I have a very rich and fulfilled life.

"Isn't this a man and a method you've received immense value from?"

All the skill I have ever gained has been my own gongfu. A teacher can only point the way. Kumar pointed A way. Not the way. I have seen the good and the bad. I've weighed both and the results should be obvious.

"Isn't this a man and a method you owe a substantial percentage of your internal arts skill to?"

See above. ALL my skill comes from my own practice and research. There is information. From this, with practice, can come knowledge. Skill is an entirely different matter.

"Isn't this a man and a method that has played an important and positive role in your life?"

Important yes. In both directions. Positive? We wouldn't be having this dicussion if that answer was not also obvious. There are many stories and tales I am not willing to tell. Some I have elsewhere. If these sordid issues interest you they can be found.

"And even if you have valid criticisms, isn't the title of the thread a bit of melodramatic hyperbole?"

Hmmm. You might think so. Your opinion about this doesn't matter to me one way or the other. And since words have actual meanings, you'd have to define your use of 'hyperbole' here.

"What damage have you suffered from following his training methods?"

My physical issues may have a number of causes, I don't know. That does not negate the fact that the method seriously violates quite obvious kinesthtic principles. Let's not make this about personalities.

"I may have it all wrong, and I apologize if I do.... but I find your criticisms curious and sad that's all."

And I am not without experience with such passive aggressive clap trap.

" Like I would find it curious and sad if someone said, "My father loved me and he raised me to be a good man, and when he died he left me a fortune..... But I go to his grave and piss on it every day because goddamnit, he didn't buy me the bicycle I wanted when I was ten."

I cannot buy into your "curious and sad" mindset. Take what I say, or leave it. It doesn't matter to me. I'm not your teacher so we owe each other nothing. You've heard from those who know me, some who have learned from me. Beyond that I have nothing to offer you. My thoughts and teachings stand for themselves. React as you will to them. But please, leave the psycho babble out of it for me. I'm immune.

Time to do what?............oh, I forgot: you don´t speak English so good............

There's still time to do so...

............ ....WELL! I guess I haven´t been gone quite SO long after all! Armando
"How would Huntley and / or Brinkley do it ?"

But that would only add to the waste on this site, and as we know, people do like to waste time and say things rather contra....well !

Ellen... I like what you said, but how do you really feel ?

I recently did a Yiquan workshop with Fong Ha where his approach to 'standing' was more about determining what's YOUR natural comfortable posture rather than following a rigid set of 'rules' or alignments set by another person. I realize that the standard alignments are necessary to some degree but it was extremely freeing to practice standing with him in this way.

Def in agreement about William's comments [YAWN]...seriously? William, shut. the. fuck. up. Anyways...Its nice to hear someone actually challenge and/or disagree with what's being taught by certain instructors. One of the most frustrating & annoying aspects of training with Bruce is people's willingness to blindly follow EVERYTHING he says and never question anything he teaches. The postural issue is a BIG one and this discussion, especially the input from senior teachers/practition ers and bodyworkers is extremely helpful! (Alfred~ your posts are NOT too long, I'm learning tons from your comments. thanks).

Well with regards to William, I suspect he read my post as a sycophant to have up come up with his comments. I hope it is understood that my post was meant as a help.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Alfred, with your comments about the musculature of the yao/kua. And yes, lordosis is a real threat in our culture. Thanks for your input.

I want to acknowlege William's comments and I agree that quite often folks get involved in ego matches and cut downs. I am not trying to engage in such. I am acctually very excited to be in this conversation. These postural and functional movement issues are very facinating to me. That being said I would like to continue with some other thoughts that I have had.

Most of the lower back issues that I see in my practice involve a hyper lordosis or swayback. Many of the things that we do in our modern lifestyle as well as some sport activities conspire to create this posture. The area most usually affected is the L4-L5 juncture which naturally has more curve than the others. This results in an anterior tilt to the pelvis.

Our practice of holding the pelvis posterior or tucked under and pressing the lower back out in some ways corrects this, even overcorrects.

In many therapeutic settings clients will be taught to exercise/engage their abdominals so as to bring balance to the pelvis. One thing that is often overlooked and yet essential is the Psoas and the illiacus and their role in balance and power. So many people have adaptivly shortened psoas. Quite often this comes from sitting too much.

If you tighten abs and hold the pelvis tucked then the spine will usually align correctly but now it is compressed and locked. The abs and the glutes and the deep six rotators are all in a lockdown struggle against the QL and the Illiopsoas group. Now what you have is good posture but no mobility.

What we want to create is proper structure with mobility. In this the pelvis is mobile and can tilt forward and back as needed. Our objective is to have a L4-L5-sacral region that feels "floaty" and loose. This way we can create wave motion that emminates from pelvic rocking and transfers smoothly through the spine picking up more power as it travels.

We want the pelvis to be mobile so that it can feel and follow and adjust to outside influences. Then when needed it can lock down and then release.

There is more, like I said this is a subject that facinates me, but I will shut up for now as this post has run very long.

Boy, Muddy, you just do not learn! First, go back to grammar school and try seriously to learn a little English. Then try a few vitamins or something so that you make things function. And then work on that anti-human chip you always have on your shoulder.

"You don´t have to read the mail if you don´t like it. Just erase it!"

Surely you realize the irony of this statement... perhaps not.

"I find the vulgar language totally uncalled for."

Uhhhh, see above.

"Could that be associated with that expression you Yanks have of "cutting off your nose for spite of your face"....... or something like that?"

You Yanks...how parochial.

"It is merely that one must clarify what he wants to do or accomplish and deal with each in its own context. When you start crossing these lines, you accomplish little."

You mean you absorbed little. The problem lies in your comprehension. And did I mention you added little (or nothing) to the current discussion beyond your typical bitch session?

Forgive me all for lashing dead horses from back on May 10th: I have been away a bit. While I certainly agree that the tendency toward dogmaticism is a problem that one

should watch out for, I find the vulgar language totally uncalled for. Everybody has a right
to express themselves here. You don´t have to read the mail if you don´t like it. Just
erase it!

As well, reading through these last few mails, there seems to be a confusion in the language. I think each has its place and purpose. It is merely that one must clarify what
he wants to do or accomplish and deal with each in its own context. When you start
crossing these lines, you accomplish little. Could that be associated with that expression you Yanks have of "cutting off your nose for spite of your face"....... or something like that?

And, yes, I agree: Alfred, your notes are definitely not too long!

I recently did a Yiquan workshop with Fong Ha where his approach to 'standing' was more about determining what's YOUR natural comfortable posture rather than following a rigid set of 'rules' or alignments set by another person. I realize that the standard alignments are necessary to some degree but it was extremely freeing to practice standing with him in this way.

Def in agreement about William's comments [YAWN]...seriously? William, shut. the. fuck. up. Anyways...Its nice to hear someone actually challenge and/or disagree with what's being taught by certain instructors. One of the most frustrating & annoying aspects of training with Bruce is people's willingness to blindly follow EVERYTHING he says and never question anything he teaches. The postural issue is a BIG one and this discussion, especially the input from senior teachers/practition ers and bodyworkers is extremely helpful! (Alfred~ your posts are NOT too long, I'm learning tons from your comments. thanks).

Well with regards to William, I suspect he read my post as a sycophant to have up come up with his comments. I hope it is understood that my post was meant as a help.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Alfred, with your comments about the musculature of the yao/kua. And yes, lordosis is a real threat in our culture. Thanks for your input.

I want to acknowlege William's comments and I agree that quite often folks get involved in ego matches and cut downs. I am not trying to engage in such. I am acctually very excited to be in this conversation. These postural and functional movement issues are very facinating to me. That being said I would like to continue with some other thoughts that I have had.

Most of the lower back issues that I see in my practice involve a hyper lordosis or swayback. Many of the things that we do in our modern lifestyle as well as some sport activities conspire to create this posture. The area most usually affected is the L4-L5 juncture which naturally has more curve than the others. This results in an anterior tilt to the pelvis.

Our practice of holding the pelvis posterior or tucked under and pressing the lower back out in some ways corrects this, even overcorrects.

In many therapeutic settings clients will be taught to exercise/engage their abdominals so as to bring balance to the pelvis. One thing that is often overlooked and yet essential is the Psoas and the illiacus and their role in balance and power. So many people have adaptivly shortened psoas. Quite often this comes from sitting too much.

If you tighten abs and hold the pelvis tucked then the spine will usually align correctly but now it is compressed and locked. The abs and the glutes and the deep six rotators are all in a lockdown struggle against the QL and the Illiopsoas group. Now what you have is good posture but no mobility.

What we want to create is proper structure with mobility. In this the pelvis is mobile and can tilt forward and back as needed. Our objective is to have a L4-L5-sacral region that feels "floaty" and loose. This way we can create wave motion that emminates from pelvic rocking and transfers smoothly through the spine picking up more power as it travels.

We want the pelvis to be mobile so that it can feel and follow and adjust to outside influences. Then when needed it can lock down and then release.

There is more, like I said this is a subject that facinates me, but I will shut up for now as this post has run very long.

Time to be gone so lone, Army,. And it's so well, not so good. Who doesn't speak English so well? Ah, irony.
Time to do what?....... .....oh, I forgot: you don´t speak English so good........ ....Well enough to read the same old tired passive aggresive, Army. But you are well conversant with that as well.
Did you not see where I can't care about others opinions Army? Yours more than others. Please see your previous ironic reply. Why can't you learn from your own advice? Odd.
Well, I really did not want to say anything negative to "touch you off" - it seems to be so easy to do so - but it is nice to know that I am not the only one you feel the need to insult because of such a superior sense that you never have to give a damn. Your detailed reply.....well, at least you sort of tried!...... was really weird and pathetic and irrational. What is your problem, Buddy? Why don´t you finally grow up? You say some very good stuff sometimes, and have obviously had a lot of good experience and capacity, so why do you still have that necessity to use that to slap people in the face. It really is rather infantile. Pity you do not want to really be a part of the human race. It is pretty nice a lot of the time. It is so interesting to see that you can never respond to criticism, even sort of academic stuff, without plunging your ego into it so personally, always with that necessity of personally insulting people. You have enough years on you! Grow up awready!

"I cannot accept such a self anointed behavior lacking respect for the teacher one has learnt from nevertheless not accepting that he also is a human being having perhaps his problems and weaknesses which such thoughtless criticism whom you critisize does not put in consideration. "

First of al,l I could not possibly care less what accept or not, you are unimportant to me. Secondly, once again you create a stupid straw man and rail against that, typically. If you had the ability to read what was actually there, instead of what you chose to interpret, you have seen that my criticism was with the method and not Bruce. And I do nothing with out thought, son.

"The second point in a similar behavior towards me not having the luck easily meeting BK lacks similarily the foundations. The training materials of BK give a certain access to the practice especially by the tapes and videos. Denying that and how real transmissions and initiations work also without the presence of teacher but in such materials may hint that such person lacks a real understanding of such processes where a respect towards the teacher beyond all criticism you may have and utter is helpful"

Horse shit. Everything Bruce has ever taught must be learned live. To even insinuate that you could begin to understand the subtly and complexity of such work demonstrates how clueless you truly are. BTW, my studying with Bruce was not luck, I moved across a continent to do so.

"So dear Buddy it may well be that you missed certain important points in your career so interesting your remarks are for me"

That may be, but you are incapable of judging that. You are clearly just another keyboard dilettante.
A someone very wise once said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt". You may want to study up on that one.

I cannot accept such a self anointed behavior lacking respect for the teacher one has learnt from nevertheless not accepting that he also is a human being having perhaps his problems and weaknesses which such thoughtless criticism whom you critisize does not put in consideration.

The second point in a similar behavior towards me not having the luck easily meeting BK lacks similarily the foundations. The training materials of BK give a certain access to the practice especially by the tapes and videos. Denying that and how real transmissions and initiations work also without the presence of teacher but in such materials may hint that such person lacks a real understanding of such processes where a respect towards the teacher beyond all criticism you may have and utter is helpful.

So dear Buddy it may well be that you missed certain important points in your career so interesting your remarks are for me.

"But in the meantime I doubt if this criticism of Bruce is really a valid one."although this:

"though having never had an instruction on the basis of BK."
sort of renders your criticism totally invalid. Perhaps you should only speak of things you actually do know, young Skywalker.

I follow with a certain interest this discussion knowing the points by Mantak Chia and his pretension not shared by Juan Li as I could be seen in their demonstrations that this rounding of the back with a breast drawn inwardly is not the last word of effective fighting and a demonstration of the flexibility of no resistance in Tai Chi.

Surely I like also very much criticism as a means for learning something. But in the meantime I doubt if this criticism of Bruce is really a valid one.

BK as you know was badly damaged by a car accident and it is a wonder that he could recover for again fighting and training others. But in a restricted way as a surely very quick but waddling Buddha as he calls it due to the style and restrictions of his accident and perhaps some blocks he did not work in the meantime as a human fault if you like.

So I wonder indeed that his back is rather bowed having not such dropped shoulders for freeing the neck and shoulders for a upright head nearer to a lower practice extending the head even forward having not sufficiently worked the neck.

Normally in his style and teaching the spine should be very movable beginning already with rolling down and then up the spine for making it movable not to speak of the sung or song of letting go the whole structure downwards for getting the real one through certain imbalances caused this way as I learned by the discussion strig and experienced myself though having never had an instruction on the basis of BK.

That you may get kyphosis or lordosis this way is likely and should be considered.
So I was rather astonished after having made much crane neck exercises and turning of the head in circling the body in a Tibetan Qigong of Lama Fofu how stiff also in the spine and neck I am in reality by using the unblocking massage techniques of Dr. Baolin Wu of the 9 Dragon Gate Qigong of the Dragon sect. There is still an impressing cracking of the discs to be worked through for getting the full movability in all directions in the head, neck and chest region not to speak of kwa what I have not worked out yet like leg, knees and feet.

I think one teacher cannot cover up all aspects so that this obviously more beginners level of BK restricted by his car accident and being older now do not alter his great merits having introduced the water method and many interesting movements and parts of good breathing methods.

you brought up several points in your post but the essential message I think is that we have to be aware of not making any technique an end in itself. A technique is not the ultimate answer.

For example, after studying with BKF I learned NEVER to hyper extend an arm or a leg or almost any joint really. Later studying with new teachers I observed in some of the forms a lot of hyper-extension and that disturbed me initially because I felt that was wrong and in some ways an inferior qigong practice. Later I understood that the hyper extending in some of the forms have a reason and actually after performing the form itself I felt really good! So where is the right and wrong? The form is the form. It's also possible that I misunderstood BFK and took the rule of never hyper extending into basically everything! (my fault)

On the other hand it's true that if one has a bad back, hyper extending the knees for a particular routine is a very bad idea. I would appreciate if a teacher mentions other ways of practicing the same form in case of pre existing injury. (BKF seemed to warn us a lot in more specific instances)
As students and practitioners/ teachers we are also becoming more educated though trial and errors and more exposure to other methods as well. So I think that questioning the methods is good, our way of learning them, and where we are with our bodies to begin with. The latter is more difficult because awareness seems to come up within us more gradually and it's also part of our ongoing learning process.

In general I regard the Alexander technique as a pre-technique, we need to know what a normal body and use of the body in motion and stillness is first in order to learn something new.
A good example of this pristine body use is almost in any kid that has not started school yet, or watched already too much television. If you have the opportunity to observe one, go for it peace.

PS: You mentioned something about your ankles and feet I have trouble understanding, would you care to explain a little more? Will talk more about Alexander technique tomorrow or soon anyway:) !